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ab
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 9:21 am    Post subject: Not searching just 'Anywhere.' Reply with quote

Police past,present and no doubt in the future believe Keith is in one of two places on Saddleworth Moor.
All the 'real' evidence,comment,investigation,research and knowledge point to this simple fact.
Any person who has had any deep involvement with this case would agree with that.
I have seen and heard so much that would have the public believe that Keith could be absolutely anywhere in 40 square miles of moorland, it is absolute nonsense. I was infuriated by a local (Manchester) report that was conducted from a helicopter flying randomly above Saddleworth Moor. I heard quotes along the lines of 'He could be anywhere','This is just a small section of the moor','Imagine trying to find the body of a young child in all of this' While the camera panned outward to take in as much of the moor as would fit into the lens.
I cannot understand how this is still allowed to happen after so many years and it does absolutely nothing to further the search for Keith. If anybody still believes that Keith could be 'Anywhere' on Saddleworth Moor then there is little hope for any further education on the subject and it will still be believed that we are walking aimlessly on the moor and just picking a spot and hoping to get lucky.
That IS NOT the case and that should be made plain to everybody. Unfortunately, there are people prepared to wander away from the areas where it is believed Keith is buried on the whim of something or somebody that does not make sense in any way to what has been discovered in over 40 years of investigation. Including 4 visits to the moor by Brady and Hindley, 2 visits by each of them. To all the people that will say the pair just misled the search teams could I point to the fact that these visits to the moor led to the discovery of Pauline Reade's body during the search for BOTH bodies. Because Keith was not found does not mean that he is not in those areas. Pauline was found not too far away from where Lesley Ann Downey and John Kilbride were found in 1965, but Pauline was not found until almost 23 years later. How many times had the police been close to her body before the original search was called off? Did they believe she was not there then? The answer is NO. Do they believe Keith is not in one of those areas now? Again the answer is NO.
No matter how hard it is to understand, the official searches were eventually called off for various reasons and we have to live with that. What we do not have to live with is the stupid comments expressed by non-thinking, non-researched, non-factual reports and stories far too often aired in the papers and tv programmes.
How much longer will this go on for? How much longer will it be allowed to go on for?
We have TWO areas to concentrate on, there is disagreement on which area Keith may be in but that is not a detriment to the search for Keith. What is a detriment to the search for Keith is looking in areas where there is no real evidence that he may be there and the continuing useless reports that the search is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
We have a choice here, to try and find Keith in the areas that all the evidence points to, or to go along with the reported 'Hopeless' and 'Heartrending' search of 'The vast,bleak,endless stretch of moorland.'
I made my choice a long time ago and I stick to it, nothing I have seen or heard has diverted me from the area I believe Keith is buried in. It is one of the two areas mentioned above, with an open mind, but doubt, about the other area. That is the only way I can carry on. I can/have to cope with this situation but I find it hard to cope with the rest of the nonsense I see and hear.
Finally, the point of writing this is to inform people that the press and news reports ALWAYS say the same thing about the search and make it seem hopeless, the reports are never contradicted and it never seems to be pointed out that some of us have certain areas we return to for certain reasons.
Some people do wander around and make the search look hit-and-miss and that is for them to answer to and to give their reasons for doing so. Sadly, too many of those people have very little to say in response to the senseless reporting they are party to.
I have had my say. I hope they do the same to clarify their position.

I would like to invite others to comment on this subject as I am really very interested in what people think about the search for Keith. Please do not keep your thoughts to yourself. This forum is for all thoughts about Keith and I for one would like to hear yours.




Last edited by ab on Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total


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JC
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there ab,

I too used to beleive those reports, as a Londoner I only had the press to go on; so glad I found this board and learnt about the clarifications and corrections to the media's presentation of this search as hopeless. On TV I used to see the vast plains, with the lanquid commentry, the whole picture suggested this was a search that would never end.

The press like victims, and they not only need them but they also choose who are the victims, so they can shift copy depending on the slant; you can see this in the differing treatment given to Kate McCann versus Denise Fergus, one is a victim, the other a harpie!

If this isn't clear, what I am saying is that Winnie is the perfect 'target' to elicit sympathy, even to the cost of facts, simply to sell more newspapers.

One question ab, is the search made more complicated because of Brady saying Keith is not where people claim him to be, in addition to theories espoused elsewhere?

JC




Last edited by JC on Fri May 28, 2010 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi JC,

There is no evidence that Keith is buried anywhere other than the areas we know about. Hindley and later Brady went to the same area in regard to Keith.
Some people will say Brady only went to see how close the police were to Keith or to see if the site of Keith had been disturbed. Even if that is the case Brady HAD to go to that area to find out.
He has often stated he could find the site of Keith, but he has never wanted to take the police somewhere else to do that.
On his first visit to the moor he pointed to a steep bank and told the police that a spade was buried in the bank, Hindley had already told the police that after Keith was murdered a spade had been pushed into a shale bank as they left the moor. The spade was never found but it does not mean it was never there.
He has hinted at another body being on the moor but the thought at the time was that he had begun to believe it was all possibly coming to an end with the discovery of Keith and so he invented other victims, I personally go along with that and thought the same myself at the time.
Just a few pointers JC. Hope they make sense.

Best wishes,

ab


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi ab,

Yes that makes perfect sense, in a way he hung by his own petard, he HAD to go the correct area even to make sure things were undisturbed; I certainly think Brady would be demented/cruel enough to do that while saying nothing.

I hope when Keith is found Brady will be in utter despair, I'll enjoy reading about that!

JC


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mudcrab
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to echo JC and say the forum certainly educated me in all matters relating to the search for Keith.

I do also want to state that if you were a first time visitor to this site, and not as well read or informed as perhaps the more frequent visitors are, you'd maybe be of the impression form the mass media etc that the Search for Kieth was in 'could be anywhere' classification'. In my view more needs information needs to be easily available, especially for the casual or first time visitor.

The facts as ab has posted, and a not only where we are up to today, but a History of what has been done in the past, need to be here. Sorry to admin and mods if I appear to be going on a bit about this ,other members have raised this before too, I do understand there are only so many hours in the day, and that it might mean some major changes to the forum (I offer my help in anyway I can btw and I'm sure more people would be willing to as well) but I do think this will educate people, they are interested already, that is why they have visited, and also by showing that the finding Keith is so much more than just a remote possibility, people will of course be prepared to go deeper into their pockets when it comes to donations.

I know (and I don't want to step on anyone's beliefs here, so I'm just speaking for me, ok) Keith will be found, not because of any faith based factor, but because we have the information, technology and professional expertise needed to find him.

I try to keep an open mind, and for that reason I don't close the door on someone out there having some new information, maybe something that could narrow the search area down even further. I mean concrete facts here btw, theories and conjecture are ok, however, you'll find that most can be debunked pretty quickly. Please if you do come forward, it would be the right thing to do after all, help bring this little boy home to his family after all these years. I'm sure ways can be found to keep your identity secret, and to make sure what you have to say gets to the right people.

The media and I guess there is some public hunger too, always seems to concentrate on the actual crime, what was done, and how etc. I suppose while that sort of information might be important to some, to me it doesn't really matter, then end result is young people were killed. The real crime, and perhaps it is the biggest criminal act of all, is because Keith and the others were murdered at early ages the entire world now suffers, they never had the chance to reach their true potential as human beings. Ok so maybe they would not have grown up to be great leaders or scientists, maybe just ordinary people, the most important people in this world after all. I know lots of ordinary people, they are fantastic, they can make you laugh, they can make you cry, they are capable of almost anything when they put their minds to it.

With regard to Brady, I think the saying 'you can fool some of the people, some of the time etc' comes to mind and with all the people, professional and otherwise, that have spoken, analyzed, threatened, treated and corresponded with him over the last 40 odd years there must be some truth in all that somewhere. Yes there isn't a map with an X on it, or a GPS location, but there have been manageable areas identified. These will take time, effort and money to search properly, but very much within the possible.

I think JC and ab are quite correct, hanging on to the secret is what keeps him alive, but the game player still has to play the game, so he can't help himself when it comes to keeping people's interest, and feeding his ego. So over time to keep people interested in communicating with him, he has to let some truths out and whilst he his an excellent game player, he does make mistakes too, on one hand he seems to want everyone to believe he is totally insane, a very sick and frail old man, but from time to time I think there have been instances where the 'static' as JC might say, or smoke screen drops away a little, and he suddenly appears as the 'genius' mass murderer again. Myself, I still can't find a better word than 'evil' for what he is, maybe too simple for some, but there you go.



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ab
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi JC and mudcrab,

I find it hard to live with the fact/belief that as long as Keith remains on the moor he is still in the clutches of Brady and Hindley. They chose when and where his innocent life would end.
Keith was a kind and gentle child and he would have been the same as an adult and parent.
As mudcrab said, Keith could have grown to be a 'normal' person or maybe an exceptional person in this life, had he been allowed to choose his path.
We will never know what path Keith would have taken, we do know a good person was taken by away by two evil people.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You managed to sum up what I was trying to say a lot better than me ab.



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JC
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Mudcrab, it indeed says it quite eloquently.

The following may be the wrong thing to say and if it is please let me know and I will scrap it:

The 60's were a time of promise, I'm not talking about the silly posturing of already privileged people like the London set, but educationally. Relatives of mine in the north were able to go on to University when in the following decades they may have found this difficult; the music was wonderful, things were flowering, at least for a while; Keith could have gone on to really become something in that particular decade, the best that the working class have had; it makes the act of Brady and Hindley MORE cruel, if that's possible.

So bloody unfair!

JC


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'd agree that the 60's were a time when people all over the world thought everything was going to change for the better, ummm History will show that maybe it didn't quite pan out, but I don't think anyone could argue that really believing in peace and love was a bad thing.

I would 100% agree that opportunities for all classes changed rapidly in post war Britain, my Mother lived in a small flat above a shop when she was growing up, her family had very little ...................but she was able to get a free education, and became a micro biologist working for pzifer as part of the team that were developing the original polio vaccine.

I was too young to remember Britain in the 60's ok I was only there for 4 years anyway, and by the mid 70's the coal and steel industries in your country were not doing to well. I guess my Dad must have seen this coming..........and took the risk of taking his young family half way around the world to a new life in Australia.

I think the biggest point goes back to the simple fact that ab mentioned in his post, the opportunity for Keith to choose his own road in life was taken away by two evil people. Keith may have decided to move to Woodstock and live in a commune, but that would have been his choice, his life, his triumphs and also his tragedies all 'stolen'.

My sadness is of course 'nothing' compared to Keith's family and friends of course, and I certainly would never speak to anyone else's feelings, but for me, when Keith is found and finally comes home again, I'm going to be able to celebrate his short life everyday, and maybe put the events surrounding his death off to one side a bit, never to forget them mind you but,...................sorry I don't think I can explain this, have tried about 5 time, my command of language is not up to it. Hopefully you'll know what I was trying to say.



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I know what you are trying to say Mudcrab, let me try:

While Keith still lies on those moors, the picture always includes Brady, it's inevitable, but it's a brutish reminder of what happened to Keith, NOT what Keith was; when he is found, Brady is removed, finally, and all the things that made Keith what he was come once again to the fore, his character, his life, his essence. It is BRADY that subsequently becomes buried, and memories of Keith are allowed to shine without his malignant shadow.

Your celebration of Keith's life is a celebration of Good over Evil, nothing less.

JC


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jackie and mudcrab,

Spot on with your last post. Brady and Hindley were lesser people than Keith was at 12 years old. A child with so much to offer taken by two adults with hollow,dark empty lives.
They were nothing and had nothing to offer to anybody, Hindley died that way...Brady will do the same.
All the victims will be loved and mourned for ever. Brady and Hindley will be loathed as the evil pair they are for just as long.

Once Keith is found Brady will be destroyed, I hope the effect of that will hit him harder than he could possibly imagine and the nothing that he actually is will finally haunt him until his pathetic existence comes to an end.

This does not really do justice to the victims and their far too short lives. I hope the essence of what I am trying to say will be plain to any person that reads this.

Thank you to all that care for Keith and the on-going determination to bring him home.

ab.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you ab, your comments mean a lot to me.

The day Keith is found, the tenticle that attaches Brady to Keith will be severed, starved of nutrients, it will shrivel and die.

Brady will be left bereft of influence, no more game playing, no more ideas to manipulate, his bounty stolen.

He may try some new things, weave some more tales, I doubt anybody would believe him or even be bothered, all he will have left will be the odd and the disturbed themselves to entertain, the mad peeking, and perhaps laughing, at the mad!

He can surely feel the open maw of the grave already, let this become quicksand into the oblivion he so rightly deserves once Keith is brought home.

You didn't succeed Brady!!!!!

And I will certainly drink to that!

JC



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys, yes I we are on the same wave length. I'll be out there reminding everyone that Keith, Pauline, John, Lesley Ann and Edward should not have their shorten lives just being defined 'victims' of Murders, they were young wonderful human beings with so much potential to be and do anything they wanted.

I recently watch a Documentary and it contained an interview with Mrs Reade, I had only ever seen the footage of her at Pauline's Funeral, where she appears, sorry to say this, to be in a drug induced zombie state. It was so fantastic to see and hear her, talking about Pauline, with a smile, seemed to have a degree of peace about her.

After Keith is found I hope that all people close to him will gain some peace too.

I think I'll join you in that drink JC.



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi JC and mudcrab,

Yes, Joan was in a dazed state at Pauline's funeral because of the medication she was on and all that was happening around her. I had the great pleasure of meeting Joan before and after Pauline was found, she was a lovely lady. She always spoke of Pauline and Keith together,always 'Hoped and prayed' Keith would be found and that was said with such a genuine feeling we shared a few tears together at one stage. I am proud to state that in regard to Joan and I was glad to know her and share our grief over Pauline and Keith. I will never forget those genuine moments or that genuine lady.
The lady I knew before Pauline was found and the lady I knew after Pauline was found were like two different people, still kind,gentle and very caring but as Joan said 'I feel as though a big dark cloud has been lifted from me' I could never put into words what the discovery of Pauline's body meant to her and how that lit up the dark place she had found herself in and opened the door to escape through. She wanted the same for Keith and his family so much.
Sadly, Joan is no longer with is but I will always remember her, a kind gentle soul that should never have suffered for as long as she did.




Last edited by ab on Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wondering if someone could give us a short history of the private search (sorry I know I have been on about this before), I'd be very interested in finding out, so please, if someone could spare the time to write something it would be greatly appreciated.

Now while I fully appreciate I'm talking about searching for a person, but (and I hope this doesn't upset anyone) I am interested in the actual science and techniques used. If it helps find Keith, I'd like gain a little understanding and ask a couple of questions.

I have read in the Topping book that the Police used a more Archaeological approach for the Searches in the 80's, to try and detect disturbance, changes in the layers of the ground that would not occur in nature.

Now as a watcher of Time Team ( and yes I understand it is a TV show, so certain things are altered to make it entertaining) I know a little about the various ways ground disturbances can be identified. Magnetometry, which studies the magnetic fields in an area, resistivity, test the resistance of the ground, and Ground-penetrating radar, of course used radar, so with one or all of these a map of what is below the ground can be made.

My question is do all these work well in the moors ?, or is it a case that, they all give some information, but as with a lot of things, the more the better, and also, not actually being familiar with the terrain, is it even possible to use these machines in all the areas of the Search ?. I understand a search team is faced with hills and hollows, streams, rocks, peat, earth.........not to mention the weather, and of course the need to keep the media out of the way. Are the areas (and I don't expect an answer if it gives any secrets way) private property ?.

I've also read that the so-called "cadaver dogs" have been used in the search for Keith.

Is it the case that all the above 'tools' are providing parts of the puzzle ?, or does a single 'method' seem to be the best.



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